Reginald Maudling once spoke of ‘an acceptable level of violence’ in Northern Ireland. Reading both the newspapers, and Colours, it’s evident that the absence of clear politically motivated violence hasn’t led to a peaceful society. Has the Good Friday Agreement just changed the levels and context for ‘acceptable violence’?
No it has led to an Apartheid style society. I am working on a
story for the Observer this week about an integrated school being established
in the most religiously tolerant area of Northern Ireland, ie Mid Down. One out of
every five marriages in this area are religiously mixed. And yet the school
has faced a wall of opposition mainly from unionist politicians afraid that
their power base will slip in the area if Protestant and Catholic kids are
educated together. Imagine that! In 2006 there are still bigots opposed to
schools designed to unite little children regardless of their religion. And
that’s in the most tolerant area of Northern Ireland. It sums it all up. Peace
yes, but no love or understanding.
The Republic has been cited worldwide (including in the recent Italian election campaign) as an economic example to follow. The pros and the cons of the ‘Celtic Tiger’ have been discussed extensively already. What, though, has the effect been on communities in the North? Nell McCafferty once said that, in the absence of discrimination, she would have been quite happy to see herself as a British citizen, given that the economic benefits outstripped those in the Republic (healthcare, education etc). Would economic prosperity lessen the blow of a united Ireland for unionists?
In a word, no. Unionists buck the Marxist trend of history – they
are not directed by economic determinism. The only thing that may propel
them towards a United Ireland (and this is a view I support) is the
realisation that they could have enormous political power as the permanent
king-makers in an Irish parliament. That is of course on the back of also
realising that they have no real power anymore within the British State.
The problem however is that there is a widespread love of the British way
of life.
It seems obvious that there are huge cultural differences between unionists in Northern Ireland, and the people of mainland Britain. What are the cultural divides though, in your opinion, between Irish nationalists north and south?
There are equal divides between nationalists in the north and
those in the south. Let’s take religion as a start. Catholics in the north
are known to be more socially conservative in terms of sex for instance
than their southern counterparts. Northern Catholics are more likely to
believe their priest and be less questioning towards the Church hierarchy.
Northern nationalists are also more hostile towards unionists. Familiarity
breeds discontent!! When I go to watch the Republic of Ireland soccer team,
it’s the northern Catholic fans who sing the IRA songs, start the booing of
foreign players who used to play for Rangers etc. They are like the Bosnian
Serbs…more Serb than the Serbs themselves.
A slight side issue – you’ve written recently about the decision by Republican website The Blanket to publish the Danish cartoons. How strongly felt is the ‘clash of civilizations’ in Northern Ireland? Was The Blanket‘s decision opportunistic?
In my opinion, The Blanket‘s decision was heroic. Their logic
was that how can one debate the merits of these cartoons unless its readers
can see them and then make up their minds. It’s basic logic, simple, crystal
clear.
Throughout Colours you manage to dig below the surface, looking at various groups that are outside the traditional dichotomies of Irish life – ‘Republican/Nationalist/Catholic/Southern – Unionist/Loyalist/Protestant/Northern’. For example, gays in both the North and the South. What kind of reaction has there been in Northern Ireland to legislation allowing for homosexual civil partnerships? Do you really think, as mentioned in the book, that “there is no widespread public anger on issues like gay marriage/unions” in the Republic?
The reaction to the liberalisation of the laws on homosexuality
has been muted. Most people in Northern Ireland are tolerant or becoming
increasingly tolerant. At last year’s Gay Pride march in Belfast shoppers
including OAP’s, mothers with children etc, clapped and cheered the gay and
lesbian marchers. In contrast they either ignored or were hostile to the
small protest by a handful of bigoted fundamenalists. And yes, there is no
widespread anger in the Republic to gay civil unions.
What effect has the ‘war on terror’ had on Ireland? For example, the word terrorist for so long was almost exclusively used to describe Irish, Basque, or Palestinians, and now it’s used almost exclusively to describe Islamists. Has the obsession with Al-Qaeda, to some extent, whitewashed the collective memory giving parties like Sinn Féin an extra veneer of respectability?
More than the ‘war on terrror’, 9/11 had a massive impact. I
remember vividly that day. My youngest daughter was only a couple of weeks
old and my journalistic friend and colleague Jim Cusack arrived around
lunchtime at our house to see the new baby. We were sitting down to a lunch
of Dim Sum from a Chinese supermarket, when another reporter I know well
telephoned. He said ‘Switch to Sky News right away’ and lo and behold, we
got there in time to see the second jet slam into the Twin Towers. When it
became apparent this was a terrorist attack, Jim turned to us and said:
‘Well, that’s the end of the Provo campaign’. Sinn Féin has been keen ever since
to create distance between itself and all forms of Islamism.
On a related theme : What lessons has the British Government learned, if any, from the conflict in the North, for the current ‘war on terror’?
The lessons from the British are wrapped up in subtlety. I
remember when the British troops came to Belfast in the early ’70s. After a
brief so called ‘honeymoon period’, they started kicking down doors,
ransacking houses, generally treating people in nationalist areas with a
heavy hand. That stopped in the mid 1980s. They became more effusive and of
course secretly they kept back channels to their republican enemies. In
southern Iraq clearly the British Army is trying to apply Northern Ireland style
softly-softly tactics. But where it veers away from the parallel is the
notion of secret negotiation, because, unlike the IRA, Al Qaeda is a maximalist,
uncompromising force.
Tony Blair recently made comments likening Islamic fundamentalism and Protestant fundamentalism in Northern Ireland, and in doing so predictably received criticism from Ian Paisley’s Democratic Unionist Party. I would argue, though, that rather than being surprising and controversial, Blair’s remarks highlight the lack of attention that the D.U.P’s religious side has received in the media at large. What do you think about British/Irish media coverage of the DUP? Is it a necessary by-product of the peace process that the unsavory sides of Sinn Féin and the DUP are glossed over?
the DUP are over-reacting as usual. But the DUP are not to be
underestimated either. They have some extremely intelligent operators at
the top of their ranks. The DUP at grass roots is a very religious
organisation but the leadership realise that that base electorally is too
narrow. Yet another example here. A female friend of mine voted for the DUP
for the first time in her life last year. She drinks, smokes, loves the
company of men, doesn’t go to church, holidays in the Irish Republic; she is
liberal in her views on gay rights. But she felt the DUP strengthened would
send a powerful signal out to the world, particulary to Tony Blair, that
unionists wouldn’t be pushed around. This is the constituency the DUP has
just won over – middle class secular Protestants fed up with what they see
(rightly or wrongly) as too many concessions to republicans.
If anyone
therefore it’s the DUP itself which plays down its fundamentalist roots and
dedication to Bible-bashing Protestanism. The latter often lands the party
in trouble as in the case of Paul Berry, a young DUP assemblyman who it
turned out had a gay encounter with a masseur in a Belfast hotel. Hypocrisy
always gets found out.
The Internet has opened up whole new possibilites for communication, possibilities being developed by sites like Slugger O'Toole in the context of Northern Ireland – providing space for people from both sides of the community to discuss issues. What do you think of the Internet in this context? Is it naïve to see it as a tool for change – doomed like punk rock to fizzle out?
No. unfortunately punk had to fizzle out. I don’t think the same
will happen to the Blogs. They may evolve but their basic structure will
remain. Slugger, Blanket, and the late Portadown news revolutionised the
Irish media scene and gave a voice to the voiceless. This can only be a
good thing.
Finally, an impossible question to answer, but equally impossible not to ask: where does the peace process go from here?
Where does the peace process go? It’s stuck, but no one cares.
There are no bombs going off. No bodies up entries. No one in my local pub
talks about the stalled Northern Ireland Assembly. they are too busy wondering if
anyone can stop Chelsea and who can tip the winner in the next big horse
race.
A general point is that Northern Ireland has become a very post-modernist
shopping obsessed society. Shopping has played a massive role in defeating
the armed struggle… I’m serious about this. Shopping and the expansion of
home ownwership even in areas like West Belfast, one of the cockpits of the
conflict. People have more stake in their society whether that be through
their job in a mall or their house and its rising price
There may be a
powersharing executive in five years time between SF and the DUP but in the
meantime we are all off to the shopping centre for the latest fashion, a
double latte with cream or a Mango and Strawberry smoothie followed by a
session at the nail bar or the sun bed in order to top up and look gorgeous
for that Spanish beach holiday next month.
Colours: Ireland – from Bombs to Boom